Cate and Elizabeth Wirth, a lesbian couple in Vermont, were told by a Vermont district director of the Boy Scouts that they could no longer volunteer for their son’s Cub Scout troop after it became known that they are a couple. According to the Rutland Herald, Richard Stockton, Scout executive for the Green Mountain Council, confirmed, “The national policy of the Boy Scouts of America is we don’t accept gays and lesbians as volunteers.”
This is awful, but given the Boy Scout’s previous history with gay matters, it is perhaps not surprising. (For the record, I also have a serious problem with the fact that the Boy Scouts don’t allow atheists or agnostics to be leaders, either.)
What is interesting, however, and what I hope will stir some discussion among those of you who are around over the holiday, is this comment from one of the mothers:
Cate Wirth said Tuesday that she expects her son to remain in Scouting, despite this incident. And as of Tuesday afternoon, she had not told the boy about the comments.
“I still think Scouts is a good thing for him because he doesn’t have a dad and he’s really drawn to a lot of stereotypical male stuff that Scouting does, outdoorsy stuff,” Wirth said. “I don’t want my personal issues to impact his life in that way. I was concerned if he knew about it he might be uncomfortable going.”
She said of her decision to allow him to continue in Scouts, “Politically, if he weren’t a 10-year-old boy I’d feel differently about it. I wouldn’t support the organization. But his needs come first.”
First, kudos to Wirth for putting her son’s needs and interests above all. I’m not sure I could have resisted the urge to yank my son out of the organization.
At the same time, I find myself uneasy about her words. “Stereotypically male stuff” does not in fact need to be done by a male. That’s one of the arguments trotted out by those who say all children should have a mother and a father, so let’s put that old canard to rest right now. My opinion is that yes, there are certain ineffable things about being male that are usually best conveyed by someone who identifies with that gender (parent or otherwise). Specific activities, on the other hand, should not be so gendered.
If the Wirths are not outdoorsy types themselves, however, that is fine. I’d like to imagine, though, that there are options other than the Boy Scouts for their son—but then again, without knowing their particular location, schedules, etc., it is hard for me to say. Perhaps the Boy Scouts are indeed the best alternative for them. The whole situation reminds me of the many trade-offs we must make as parents. Again, they deserve credit for making what must be a hard decision.
I have to wonder, though: Tanney told them, “We wouldn’t want you pushing your lifestyle on the boys.” How long before their son lets slip a remark about having two moms or accidentally reveals a family photo that he tucked away in his backpack? Would the Scouts go so far as to reject the son of lesbian moms, regardless of his own sexual orientation, because of the danger of exposing other boys to their “lifestyle”?
What would you do in their situation? Do you feel it is necessary to give your children exposure to male influence (or female influence if you’re a gay dad), and if so, how do you do it?
Wow. What an interesting story. My nephew and brother have become very involved in scouting in the last few years. This spring he will make the transition from Weebelos to Boy Scouts (he’s 10). I’m very happy for him and excited because he was a child who never fit in playing soccer or baseball but he loves scouting. And I love camping and outdoorsy-ness. Plus, I think that it provides my brother a very concrete activity in which he can do some father-son bonding. My nephew’s best friend has been with him throughout scouting and he has 2 moms. One of the moms is very involved as well and they are out to the troop so obviously this is sort of a troop by troop enforcement.
At the same time, my brother has frequently wanted me to know that his troop is the homeschooling troop and how supportive they are so my son could join. While I want my son to learn camping skills, I feel that he can learn them from us (we do camp) or from one of the alternative scouting communities. I’m not willing to enroll him in an organization that has a publicly and legally stated opposition to the inclusion of gays and lesbians (or athesists and agnostics). And I support my nephew’s activities but I won’t buy anything for fundraisers because I’m not willing to give $ to such an organization.
As far as your question about “male-oriented” activities… It’s 2009! Women can play soccer and be rocket scientists and heart surgeons and run for president. Men can be on project runway and have their ears pierced and play soccer and run for president. I don’t care if it’s a traditional activity. I want to expose my kids to lots of activities whether intellectual, athletic, arts, etc. and traditional gender roles aren’t particularly important to me.
This type of situation really makes me angry. It smacks of internalized homophobia (of the kind that hopefully most queer folk should have addressed before having children). I understand that they think this is best for their son, but having their family structure attacked by an organization that they continue to endorse after the attack sends a message to their son about the value of his family. How many African-American families would maintain their child’s enrollment in a racist organization? How many Jewish families enroll their kids in antisemitic organizations (“we allow Jewish children, but their parents can’t be volunteers”). Come on. Now I know the argument there is that in these scenarios the child is Jewish as well, and this kid is not necessarily gay – but as kids our identity is that of our family. Maybe this is harsh, but I really doubt the gain of him doing “stereotypically male” activities with stereotypically straight people outweighs the damage of having his family attacked while his moms stand by and nod along.
My husband/fiance (commitment ceremony in 1997; legal wedding in IA in a week and a day) and I were able to avoid the BSA with our oldest son (the birth mom wanted him to join, but the BSA was uneasy with him joining because of his cognitive disability). We joined 4-H for a while and that worked well — they had no problem with gay dads.
Last year, our youngest boy got recruited by the BSA and he wanted to join REALLY BADLY. We relented, but also made sure that the troop wasn’t going to cause problems for us after joining. We were told that he could join and we could attend programming. We just couldn’t be leaders, which is fine b/c we don’t have time to plan troop events. So far, it’s been a good experience, but we’ve only been involved at the very local level. AND, we’re not afraid to pull out if it becomes a problem.
I’m really curious if there truly aren’t any other alternative programs for that lesbian couple’s son? 4-H? Scouting for All? Basketball? Tae Kwon Do? Soccer? I’d be extremely hesitant to allow our kids to participate in any organizations that reject our presence or involvement. I mean, what are they saying to our kids when we’re not there? What are we sending to our kids if we continue sending them to that non-affirming program?
I’m sorry to hear they’ve encountered actual discrimination. My son has been in Scouts for 7 years now, and I’ve assisted with activities throughout that time, and nobody has ever objected to my involvement. I’m actually a currently registered Boy Scout, in my capacity as a merit badge counselor.
I will admit that, since I’m my son’s only legal parent, the various Boy Scout enrollment paperwork I’ve filled out has only listed my name as parent. But my son has referred to my partner and I as “my parents” when talking directly to the troop leaders, and my partner has been pretty blunt about what her connection is when she got called in an emergency. And the troop leaders really don’t care. I have never heard anything homophobic said at any of the meetings or activities. National policy may say one thing, but I have never heard the policy even mentioned at the local level.
As for as whether there are other activities that the Wirths and other families can do instead of Boy Scouts, I haven’t run across anything else that I’d consider comparable. (Maybe 4-H or Campfire Boys/Girls would be, but they’re not in my area.) Scouts isn’t just about learning a narrow skill set of camping and lighting fires. It’s also about children gaining greater independence and confidence and leadership skills by doing all this in an environment that, as the kids grow, is increasingly a child-led rather than adult-led program. There’s a level of self-reliance that I have seen my son and his peers gain in Scouts that I simply do not see in kids who are the same age but who have only participated in sports or after-school clubs, where coaches or teachers are always providing guidance. These Scouts are preteens and young teens who have the confidence that comes from knowing they can go off into cold pouring rain for 24 hours and survive just fine, even without an adult around to tell them what to do.
My son is certainly involved in other activities too… but Scouts is one that seems to have the largest positive impact on him, so I feel fortunate he’s been in troops where I don’t have to make the decisions that the Wirths do.
I know the Boy Scouts can be a great program for kids. I have seen some great results of time spent in the Scouting program. I however, can’t support a program that doesn’t think I would make a good leader of kids. What would that tell my own child? It would seem I was not fit to be around them on my own. Seems to send many mixed messages.
As for other programs I love the Taekwondo suggestion. I have been training a teaching for over 20 years and I can tell you the amount of life skills one can learn is life changing for kids.
Oh, no. No way. I would never allow my child to join the BSA and that’s from personal experience. I participated in Venture Crew, which is a BSA program that includes Senior Girl Scouts, and the troop that we were affiliated with was extremely homophobic, as evidenced by the terrible language and anti-gay hatefulness used around and ingrained into the scouts from the start. It is troop-by-troop in many ways, but the BSA is ultimately an organization that purposely foments homophobia, and they are not going to mess around with my kids’ minds.
Will this boy really not find that out? He’s probably already experienced it, whether his moms realize it or not. Kids are damn observant and I have to bet he’ll find out about the rejection of his parents as troop leaders. So his parents are judged unfit to guide children, which would also say they are unfit to parent him, and they just let that slide like it’s ok? I understand the piece about wanting to protect him, but the fact is we can’t protect our kids from the homophobia in the world by trying to keep them ignorant of it. Sometimes the lessons of integrity and strength in the face of bigotry are just hard.
And no doubt, describing scouting activities as “stereotypically male” is just not right. In fact, in our big weekend competition, Girl Scout troops beat Boy Scouts and Venture Crews in almost every single contest by a long shot. Including winning the lumberjack competition in 42 seconds. Sounds like he’s into girly activities to me!
Dana:
Have pity on the femmes! Surely there are many families, where the Moms don’t want to camp for fear of chipping the paint on their nails. Just because your camping nickname is Vulcana (you should see the fires she makes!), doesn’t mean that everyone shares your love of the bowsaw and hatchet.
As you say, put the kids’ needs first. If the kid wants to camp, let him join the BS and then attend every meeting to make sure that they know you and that you’re paying attention. If it ever gets ugly, then pull the kid out (See above about putting kids’ needs first).
xoxox
Helen (Dana’s real life sweetie).
Hey, I did say it was fine if the moms weren’t into camping themselves. I realize not everyone shares my idea that a weekend in the woods with just a pocketknife and a bandanna is a good time. (And for the record, I’m not even that butch.) I just didn’t like the presumption that if the moms weren’t into outdoorsy stuff they therefore had to find a man to fill in.
I am, however, glad you stopped playing with our new Wii long enough to catch up on my blog.
xoxoxo,
Dana
My wife and I fought this same battle for 11 years as our only son participated in Boy Scouts. He is now an Eagle Scout and although we are proud of HIM and what he has accomplished, we have never really been proud of the Boy Scouts. However, allowed him to be a Boy Scout because we decided that this was OUR battle to fight and not his.
His troop leaders never made us feel unwelcome and we were even encouraged to register as members. When we would remind the leaders that the national Boy Scout organization wouldn’t allow us to register, their response was, “Well, they don’t really mean YOU.”
As we refused to lie about our family structure and we refused to join an organization that didn’t want us, we did our best to walk the thin line between supporting our son and supporting a discriminatory organization. We could have denied our son what he wanted but we also know that it is easier to change an organization you have some contact with rather than change one you have no connection to.
Every year, at the Blue and Gold Banquet when some “executive” from the local organization would pitch for money, I could have simply not given anything but I didn’t feel that would carry the power that making a statement would. So, I would write a ONE DOLLAR check. With it I would include a note saying “If this organization didn’t discriminate against me, this check would be at least twenty times this amount.”
Will Boy Scouts ever change? We don’t know but we continue to be avid, active supporters of Girl Scouts.
I grew up in a very boyscout-involved family. My younger brother is an eagle scout and my father is the district chairman for a large region of my home state. We went on family vacations to boyscout camp (where I had the delightful teenage experience of a fellow backpacker announcing on the first day of our hike that “If there are any lezbos here you better leave right now”). I have a lot of respect for the leaders and kids in the troop in our home town, but my whole family has had serious issues with the national organization. Both my dad and brother had been involved with the organization “Inclusive Scouting” which worked for inclusion of gays and atheists/agnostics in scouting. They produced a special square knot patch with a rainbow that adult leaders could wear on their uniforms to signify their support of gay and atheist/agnostic scouts. I think that organization no longer exists, but another group “Scouting for All” is now selling it at http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/home.html.
Wearing the patch has led to some good and hard conversations from both of them. I’m pretty proud of my dad for having been open and outspoken on the issue, though as a straight person he wouldn’t be challenged as a leader simply for his views. I promised I’d let my kids join scouting if he can get them to change their policy by the time I have any old enough. His understanding is that the position of the BSA is largely a result of strong influence on the national organization by the Mormon church. The decision by the church to integrate scouting into their community is a very significant event in the history of scouting.
Some alternatives I know kids have participated in are the YMCA’s Adventure Guides, Camp Fire USA, and if your local BSA troop is fairly progressive Venturing might be a good option. It is co-ed and much more variable than regular scout troops. Since venturing doesn’t include the “morally straight” line in any kind of code that scout lawyers use to justify their position, the court decision allowing the BSA to discriminate doesn’t apply to Venture troops. I’ve also hear of, but don’t know much about Spiral Scouts. Also, worth watching is Navigators USA, started by members of a boy scout troop in NYC and sponsored by All Souls UU church. It got going directly in response to the BSA’s exclusionary policies.
Scouting was big in my family too, and I would love for both my son and my daughter to get involved in scouts or similar organizations. I would look into alternatives first, but would consider Boy Scouts if the individual troop was gay/atheist-friendly.
Since joining the mommy brigade I’ve noticed that lots of kids in straight families have very little contact with men. It made my anxieties about male influence seem a bit silly, not that I approve of our society’s extreme division of childcare labor by gender.
I feel it’s important for my kids to get to know both men and women, just on principle. And perhaps someday there will be topics that the kids would prefer to talk about with a guy.
We live far from any of our male relatives. so we chose 2 godfathers — 1 gay, 1 straight. We spend time with one of them almost every week. My partner and I out-butch both of these men, but at age 2, my son highly values two things godpapas can do that we can’t: lift him up to the ceiling, and grow those fascinating, sandpapery whiskers!
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I took the National Council’s stance on homosexuality very flippantly as I enrolled my 11 year old into the BSA last night.
I’m a single mother from a state where laws against “homosexual conduct” were only recently struck down. I did a lot of research into the core values of scouting, the beliefs of the church in which they’ll meet, and hey – what my kiddo will have to do in order to get to the next plateau. I knew that my son was tailor-made for this stuff.
I see BSA as just another frontier into which we might sometimes have to journey. Will there be discrimination? Maybe. Will I be told that I can’t go on “Mom and Me” campouts? Maybe. But I roll with the punches and lemme tell you – I can go downright “scarecrow” when it comes to letting my son do something he loves.
I know that no organization, no matter how big, can ever dissuade my son’s love for me. He knows who I am. At the same time, he knows that no measure of the being that is me will ever try to stop him from something that he loves. I am, as I try to explain to him through my every day actions, in existance solely in order to make him the very best man he can be.
Every day that we wake up, we take a 50/50 shot on everything we put a hand to. There might be a day when my son looks at me and tells me that he hates me or that I’m going to hell. But that could happen despite my gender or sexual orientation or status in life … or whether or not he becomes an Eagle Scout.
We were, after all, put on Earth to ruin our children’s lives :)
Change happens from within. It would do me no good with my son to move to a more tolerant place or put him in a sub-par organization simply because it agrees with my politics.